Terrorist Strikes in India - and the larger picture

This post is taken verbatim from the discussion i had with Adarsh, immediately after viewing this post. Hence, in order to understand the context, it would be wise to watch the videos (might run around 30 minutes). There are many sections that may not be directly relevant for the topic, but they are included here for completeness. Adarsh, hope you do not mind me using the IM chat verbatim here... if you do, you have yourself to blame! 

If there are many of us who feel like discussing this topic, i would suggest having a conference, instead of comments / replies to the mails.

Enough said! here you go...

6:48 PM me: i did watch the show

 Adarsh: now, or previously?

 me: now

 Adarsh: what did you think?

6:49 PM me: that there's too much noise by ppl who dont know what's happening !! on both sides

  and ppl who do know, dont talk

6:50 PM but the unity between indians and media was a joke

  we cant stop tripping over each other, and killing a few in the process

 Adarsh: like wal-mart?

 me: nope... here its intentional

6:51 PM Adarsh: the guy who was interviewed sounded like a conspiracy-theorist

6:52 PM me: he's just talking through his arse

 Adarsh: i'm guessing pakistanis watching our media would feel just as surprised

6:53 PM me: not really... in one moment he says, its all played out by indian army, politicians to hide their internal issues

6:54 PM and next thing he says thats to aid the nexus between US, india and afghanistan!

  and israel... of all the countries

  its alright to have views and opinions

 Adarsh: what is wrong with that?

6:55 PM me: but these things should not be construed as facts !

  whats the purpose in 'destabilizing' pakistan?

  do we really want more land than we can handle?

  do we have such ego's that we cant take defeat?

6:57 PM Adarsh: I'm sure you can find people in India who are vehemently against Pakistan

 me: absolutely...

 Adarsh: But the Indian-Afghan connection is accurate

 me: not "can" but "do"

6:58 PM Adarsh: And if US backs India to attack Pakistan now, there's the nexus!

 me: why couldnt america do that by itself

  it has the whole world behind it

 Adarsh: Israel has always favoured India too, and were eager to take out Pakistan's nuclear facilities before they could make a bomb.

 me: and not that they havent been doing it

6:59 PM Adarsh: Doing what?

 me: bombing pakistan

 Adarsh: Pakistan is a democracy. America has no excuse to bomb them.

 me: democracy or not...

7:00 PM bombing has nothing to do with democracy

  if they want excuse, they can just point to terrorists

 Adarsh: Agreed

 me: but really... over past few months, they already have done that..

  amid much controversies

7:01 PM so i dont really think that america wants india's help in attacking pakistan

  we do have loads and loads of internal problems

7:02 PM but if yu say, that army taking more than 24 hrs to clear, means its a conspiracy, thats on a very weak footing

 Adarsh: I agree that America does not need India's help. But if they had to choose between backing an Indian attack on Pakistan and opposing it, which one would they choose?

  I don't buy the conspiracy theory argument at all.

7:03 PM But India and America helping overthrow the Taliban regime in Afghanistan is a fact. That is my only point. It would easy for the Pakistani public to buy his argument.

 me: i dont know whether they will support it or not

7:04 PM that might be so... we have been sending personnel to afghanistan

  but even pakistan dont want taliban

 Adarsh: I'm not so sure about that

7:05 PM me: atleast lets say politically

 Adarsh: That's what they say now.

  But there are two reasons why Pakistan backed them.

 me: lets talk abt now...

7:06 PM even americans were supporting taliban earlier

 Adarsh: Quite right. That's my first reason. America and Pakistan installed the Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

7:07 PM And secondly, the common Pakistani believes that the Taliban are doing the work of God and are great heroes. Thats why there was a severe backlash when the government suddenly announced that these heroes were now villains who needed to be killed.

7:08 PM me: but now, even the public doesnt want to see taliban

  apart from a certain minority

 Adarsh: how do we know that?

 me: from the politicians of pakistan

  which ofcourse is a democracy

7:09 PM as yu rightly pointed out

 Adarsh: fair enough

 me: so the point is, although its certainly possible that there was a nexus and its a charade to attack possible

  its really not probable

7:10 PM i can concoct another complete theory as to how its the Roman catholic doing all this to rid the world of hindus and muslims

  ;)

 Adarsh: We certainly have common interests, but that does not mean we would kill our own citizens to blame Pakistan.

  Same goes for America.

7:11 PM Umm... I have heard of that theory in a slightly different flavour

7:12 PM me: anyways... they are all theories... with their own merits

  but the point is unless there are indisputable facts

  one side is not better off than the other

  and one view is not more "right" than the other

 Adarsh: which means we can't blame pakistan squarely either

 me: we can and we do

7:13 PM but it doesnt mean its true or it doesnt mean its not true

  are yu talking abt "should" ??

 Adarsh: alright, grammarian

  should

7:14 PM me: we should do one thing first

  accept that the india pakistan issue cant be solved bilaterally

  there's no way in the world thats going to sort out by itself

7:15 PM the issue is there's no third party which is truly unbiased

  or appear to be unbiased

  however, coming back to the mumbai issue

  i prefer putting all evidence in public domain

7:16 PM let it be scrutinized by everyone... from Pakistan to US to UK and any tom-dick and harry

  ofcourse we need to have such information in the first place

  i dont know how much we know and how much is pure theory

7:17 PM the thing is face is, there are so few facts available

 Adarsh: let's say, for arguments sake, that we don't have conclusive evidence.

  what difference does it make now?

 me: how can yu judge these situations without having facts

 Adarsh: there is so much pressure on the leadership now

  that inaction is no longer a choice

 me: it always is a choice

7:18 PM the media will blabber for a month

 Adarsh: two months from election, no

 me: ppl will remember for another week

  all they have to do is blame on pakistan and say we are putting the pressure through US and world community

7:19 PM find some scapegoats (who anyways need to be treated as such)

  and let the charade play out

 Adarsh: that would be the wise thing to do, yes

7:20 PM me: i dont necessarily think so

 Adarsh: but the pent-up hatred will cause people to vote right wing hindus to power

 me: lets talk abt mumbai issue

  and not solve all the issues in the world

7:21 PM Adarsh: okk..

 me: what do we learn from it?

 Adarsh: There's nothing to learn that we didn't already know.

 me: there's some learning...

7:22 PM if at all they are terrorists (pakistan sponsored or not)

  they are beginning to get aggressive (either through desparation or through power)

  more and more aggressive with each passing month

7:23 PM india of all the nations is ill equipped to deal with it security wise

  how are we going to "solve" that?

7:24 PM Adarsh: The only way I see is to do a better job of "intelligence"

7:25 PM me: security / intelligence can only take us that far...

 Adarsh: Learn about attacks before hand, and stop them.

 me: yeah... thats one way

  but in india, is it really practical?

7:26 PM Adarsh: Historically, they haven't done a great job

 me: we shall have to build special forces which has all the facilities and has all the equpments and all the resources and the trainings

  yea... history is against us and we have to change that

7:27 PM but that can only take us to certain level

 Adarsh: Which is not enough to stop further attacks on India?

 me: nope, i dont think so

7:28 PM there will always be a joe somewhere whom yu can give money and carry out things

7:29 PM and in that way, what is essentially an external threat, will become internal strife

7:31 PM Adarsh: yes, its not possible to protect from all random terrorist attacks

  What is the next level, then?

 me: the next level is to really understand what is it that makes ppl do this

  there are certain basic things:

7:32 PM 1. religious beliefs

  2. money

  3. revenge

7:33 PM Adarsh: 3 > 1 > 2 ?

7:34 PM me: i wudnt put any priorities... but these are the basic traits

7:35 PM lets start with kashmir

  cant we have a 5 yr plan which focuses only on Kashmir and makes it an economic prosperous state?

7:36 PM it has to be done on a war footing - there will obviously be militay, security, political issues to be resolved

7:37 PM but if gujarat can do it, so can kashmir

  anyways, that comparison was not required

 Adarsh: I second that. We should concentrate on our strengths, and not play their game.

7:38 PM me: correct

  i think the regular joe worries abt roti kapda, makan more than anything else

  and then worries abt religion

7:39 PM obviously there are exceptions... but generally it works

  so give that to ALL kashmiris and then see the results

7:40 PM if during that process.... obviously the secuity and intelligence need to be strengthened

  have special forces exclusively for kashmir

  let the world see the progress in the lives of the public

 Adarsh: That makes so much sense, Pat.

7:41 PM Recruitment of terrorists would reduce.

  And we would have more money then for security too.

 me: concentrate on one thing at a time

  money is really moot point

7:42 PM its that ppl's perceptions and confidence have to change

 Adarsh: More employment = More wealth = More taxes

 me: and with that revenge will go out...

7:43 PM Adarsh: I agree.

  your solution is a double whammy

 me: same thing can be done in eastern states

 Adarsh: it hits so many birds with one stone

7:44 PM me: :P :P

  more than anything else, we need leaders

  india, really hasnt got any leaders to speak of!

7:45 PM Adarsh: yes, the ones we have are from the freedom movement, and they are dying

  that was the last time the public was interested in politics

 me: yep...

7:46 PM we need individuals to rise and take part in active politics

 Adarsh: which explains your support for that party

 me: thats nearly not enough

  i mean instead of supporting in want to be in the active field

7:47 PM i*

 Adarsh: yeah

7:48 PM me: but im pretty hopeful...

 Adarsh: you know, i might just join you

 me: things are moving in right direction... in many things... in small little ways

  :)

7:49 PM in many ways, "IT" has really taken shine away from india

  all the "bright" minds are so focussed towards money, that we see nothing else...

  or atleast "do" nothing else

7:53 PM Adarsh: I agree, Pat.

7:54 PM It's a first step, but like your party figured out first hand, it's not going to be easy to win an election.

  You need the support of the old guys who know where all the bodies are buried.

7:55 PM me: there's nothing that generation can do...

  its got to be freshly built

 Adarsh: They know how to win elections

7:56 PM Political philosophy aside, there's a reality to be faced in the field

  I'm not saying its not possible.

  But unless we plan to make all the mistakes and learn, we need the experienced too

7:57 PM me: we need them to advise

  not to run us

7:58 PM Adarsh: Yes

 me: phew

  that was quite a sermon

7:59 PM Adarsh: i prefer to call it a healthy exchange of ideas

--------------------------------- End Of Discussion ------------------------------